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Discussion 4 on Talk Back 105
Don't start accusing Christians of supporting slavery.

by: Anthony

Rather than make multiple posts out of Anthony's remarks and my replies, I have combined them into a single article. JT

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No, no, no! I said ultimately, on the atheistic position, there is technically no reason that what Hitler did was wrong. Don't start accusing Christians of supporting slavery. Have you ever heard of John Brown? You know that Christianity does not support slavery, so stop desperately lying. People like you can't handle the message of Christianity, so you resort in attacking straw men.

Once again, Anthony, you insist on tying atheism, with absolutely no supporting evidence, to approval of Hitler's deeds. The facts are that those who supported Hitler when he was in power were overwhelmingly Christian. The fact is that the tiny minority who continue to approve of Hitler today are still overwhelmingly Christian.

And yes Anthony, the majority of Christians did support slavery in the past. And your best argument against that is John Brown? If you actually had read what I wrote, I said: ...a few brave Christians join[ed] forces with freethinkers to oppose slavery. Your John Brown was one of those few - and with his act of domestic terrorism, he possibly set the cause of abolition back in the USA rather than advancing it.

By the way, if you really are interested in the history of the abolition of slavery, and the involvement of Christians on both sides of the argument, you would do best to look earlier than John Brown, and more importantly, look outside the USA.

I'll agree that right now, today, Christianity does not support slavery. Christians have decided - and it took them nearly 2000 year to reach this decision - to ignore the Bible on this issue, but Christians led by their organized churches did support slavery for most of two millennia. And the Bible, both Old and New Testaments still contains numerous passages supporting slavery and not a single passage opposing it. Opposition to slavery is a moral decision that comes from outside the Bible. Your God and your Jesus have nothing to do with that moral decision.

Andrew - you do not know what a strawman argument is. An example of a strawman argument is your attack on atheist morality with which you opened this discussion. You misrepresented atheist morality, then attacked that misrepresentation.

Okay, now your making me really angry. You cannot use the Old Testament Israel as a doctrine in Christianity. Us Christian go by the teachings of Jesus Christ, and he clearly would not have approved of slavery. Why don't you actually read the Gospels.

You are getting angry? Why? You voluntarily came here attacking the morality of non-believers, and you get angry because you are shown to be wrong? What did you expect? That your nonsense and your baseless insults to the morality of non-believers to be treated with respect?

So you reject the Old Testament? And yet in your very first contact, you gave us a creationist link? That's totally Old Testament. And in rejecting 75% of the Bible, you are undermining your claim to get some kind of objective morality from it. You are picking and choosing your Biblical moral guidance. That's subjective morality, not objective.

So Jesus "clearly would not have approved of slavery." Please provide a reference in the Gospels that you told me to read. I challenge you - provide a reference.

Slavery was all around Jesus and he is not on the record once for raising his voice in opposition to this vile institution. That is a strong indication that Jesus (or those that transmitted his supposed words to us) "clearly did not disapprove of slavery."

Anthony - I suggest you read the Gospels.

I'm not a young earth creationist. I admit that I used to be more involved in that movement, but not anymore. And also, I thought you were an apathetic agnostic. So why the heck do you care so much? Read this: Apathy. The fact is, Jesus Christ is the central figure in Christianity. The parts in the Old Testament that you pointed out were simply describing a political position more than 3,000 years ago! It has absolutely nothing to do with Christian doctrine. Yes, slavery is in the Bible. But there are also atheists in the Bible as well. I want to apologize for sounding ignorant before. I was having a bad day today as it is, and when an apathetic agnostic is bugging you about your faith on email, it doesn't make it any better.

"The parts in the Old Testament that you pointed out were simply describing a political position more than 3,000 years ago!"

Now that, Anthony, is moral relativism.

It's not the made-up moral relativism you choose to attribute to atheists. That is real genuine 24 carat gold moral relativism.

"...when an apathetic agnostic is bugging you about your faith on email, it doesn't make it any better."

A question, Anthony? Who started this? All I have done is respond and demonstrate you are wrong. And you are wrong. You are wrong about the morality of non-believers. And you are wrong about the so-called objective morality you claim to follow. You've been wrong from the very beginning of this exchange.

You don't understand moral relativism, even though you practice it. You don't understand objective morality, even though you don't practice it. You don't understand subjective morality, even though you pick-and-choose your moral guidance from the Bible. You don't know your history, not even the history of your own religion.

Oh - and you could not even be bothered to read this website to see what it was all about before submitting your nonsense. Otherwise, you might have understood what the apathetic in apathetic agnostic meant before you attacked that. After all, there is a FAQ for it on the main page. And there's a bit of irony in that, isn't there - you making an issue over apathetic, when you couldn't be bothered to check out what it meant in context.