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Discussion 19 to Talk Back 95
Reply to Talk Back 95, discussion 17 on Faith

by: jackdaw

To add to this exchange of views (or any other,) please use the Contact form. Michael Frank wrote

What I’m talking about is true love (greek: agape).  True love is selfless.  True love gives without expecting anything in return.  True love is not something that you receive, instead you can only really experience it when you exercise love on someone who doesn’t deserve it.

What a crock of something.  According to all the holey books (a sieve being watertight compared to such tomes as the bibble babble, kran, and the baggy gits) god hates half the human race (his/her/its/their creation remember) as women are only considered property.  At best.

The first two loving religions blame women for all the woes of the world (including earthquakes!), and the other one cremates them along with their dead husbands.  This is OK to some, as they don't have souls according to their particular insane sect.

As for “agape” love, and giving without expecting anything in return, he/she/it/them (god) in the holey bibble babble shows a distinct lack of this attribute.  Wearing cloth made from two materials is enough for the insane old bastard to abhor you.  Where is the true love there?

Someone counted up the enumerated number of folk killed by he/she/it/them in the wholly babble, load of old tosh, and the score was something like 2 million plus killed by god, and 10 individuals killed by satan.  Furthermore, these 10 were at god's instigation to prove something about love of him/her/it/them(sel[f|ves]) given by Job.  As satan was encouraged by god they are also really down to him/her/it/them.

Total unnumbered dead down to jealous were far, far more, almost all the world's population in the flood story for a start.  How many millions would that have been?  No to mention nearly everything else.  What did the Koala Bears or the penguins do to deserve this?

Unfortunately, like all tyrants, he/she/it/they demands love and blind obedience, while failing to display any sign of reciprocating.  Instead, according to the holey books, he/she/it/they prefer to torment and punish us eternally (especially women) for being no more nor no less than he/she/it/them created.

Of course, due to poor planning, something had to be done.  With only a small area in the garden of eden, everything would soon have bred enough to overwhelm available resources.  So some excuse had to be found to kill off the older generations.  Hence the set up with the talking snake and the “apple”.  What an excuse for the infantile cretin to do what he so loved and enjoyed to do with his toys, blame them for his own incompetence.  Then torture them.

A way to show love for his/her/its/their creations?  We are to believe this lunacy?

The only exceptions will be a small number [144,000?] who will “finally be able to have a society of peace, and righteousness, and fairness, and love, and fellowship with each other and God.” from one weird cult or another.  Strangely all these cults claim to be the chosen ones and cheerfully consign the others to damnation, along with us secular folk.  As I said, a complete crock of something.

“ Do you see how the story of our existence is all about God’s desire to commune with us and love us?


It sounds almost the opposite.  The Wholly Babble's story sounds like a petulant infant throwing it's toys out of the pram.  Actually it's a long confidence trick designed to ensure that a greedy and venal priesthood can live a life of privilege and luxury by battening on to their dupes.  “There was a time when religion ruled the world. It is known as the Dark Ages.”  ~  Ruth Hermence Green

The religious stories are all intended to concentrate power and wealth in the hands of a few greedy priests for their benefit in the here and now.  Given the opportunity they kill anyone who disagrees in order to maintain their privileges.  Fatwas, the inquisition, and the invented “crime” of heresy all underline this.

“ Even if it costs Him having to die a humiliating excruciating death at the very hands of those He was dying to save, it was worth it to Him.“

Was the resurrected one Horus or Mithra, or one of the other sun gods, John Barleycorn perhaps?  All the christian story is, is a rehash of earlier sun gods death and resurrection.  There is as much historical evidence for the events portrayed in the load of new tosh as there is for Odin hanging on the Yggdrasil tree.

Furthermore, this alleged death of god is a temporary thing.  Ours is permanent, (or we get tormented for all eternity for the “crime” of not being taken in by this rubbish).  Millions of real people died humiliating and excruciating deaths at the hands of the evil followers of this mythical god-man.  For the mythical "crimes" of witchcraft, heresy, and becoming an apostate.

The apologists for religion claim that these things are all in the past.  See Belsen and Jasenovac for some examples from within my lifetime.  It's still going on this millennium in Africa and Asia as a quick google will reveal.  The other claim is that they were not “real” worshippers of the one true dog (whichever one or more he/she/it/them happened to be).  From the history of religion, there is no other sort.  They kill , enslave, and abuse “heretics”, “pagans” and “apostates” as a matter of course for as long as they can get away with it.

Point 2

“ This of course wasn’t successful and he and the other angels that had left their places were cast down into the earth some time before the creation of man.   (emphasis added) This is a typical piece of philosophastery used by the evangelical to confuse the issue.  They make it up and rely on their opponents believing them, or not having a book to hand.  There is no mention of these important events in either version of the creation in Genesis.

Isaiah is a typical bibble babbling witness, he wasn't there at the time, he made it up much later.  That is, if he even existed and hadn't been mistranslated as per:

Isaiah 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

This, although used in the matthew gospel lies (1:23) to claim it applied to the alleged birth of jesus, applies to someone from earlier called, stranglely enough, emmanuel.  And the original didn't mention a virgin but a young woman.  Which removes the carpet from under isaiah as a reliable story teller.  With genesis and revelations both disagreeing, the vote is 2 to 1 against this story.

Revelations (KJAV) actually starts:-

1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: (emphasis added, this passage was written long after the purported creation of man.)

Later we get:

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.: (emphasis added)

According to the load of new tosh,  the head honcho himself said:

Matt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, [the High Priest] Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark  13:30  Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Mark  14:62 And Jesus said [to the hight priest], I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

John  5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John  21:22 Jesus saith unto him [John], If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Paul and others went along with these claims:

Romans  13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Cor  1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:  1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

1 Cor  10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Cor  13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Cor  15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

Phil  1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Phil  4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thess  4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thess  5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Tim  6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb  9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

James  5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

1 Peter  1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1 Peter  4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1 John  2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

(Emphasis added above)  (Aside:-  "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ" --  Jerome)

So it was supposed to happen years ago in the lifetime of Paul/Saul and the gospel writers.  Apologists for this book of rubbish have been claiming that it is due shortly for the last 2,000 years or so.  Satan doesn't get kicked out until the last days according to john of Patmos

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Mankind is around NOW and it still hasn't happened.   (I, for one, am not holding my breath waiting for armageddon either, it's been threatened for 2,000 years already. How long do we have to wait for the evangelical to admit this prophesy is a crock of something and just plain wrong?  (Just like all the others that were not made without the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.)  Oh, I forgot, it's due in 2012 in time for the London Olympics.  Some crap from the Mayan Calendar or the dimensions of the great Pyramid of Giza have to be used for this, the latest prediction.

{The author(s) of 2 Peter tried to cover up the failure of these prophesies by saying a day is equivalent to 1,000 years for Jesus.  But these statements were aimed at the dupes, not the imaginary god-man.  Rather than wait for the evangelical to invent another lot of meanings for this, I will submit that whole stupid book means that Bugs Bunny will steal some Yorkshire Puddings from Ernst Bloefeld.  Well it makes as much sense as the usual religious apologetics and excuses.}

According to Ussher creation was somewhat before John of Patmos' time.  The religious habit of indulging in “pious frauds” is stupid and counter productive, but such considerations don't seem to occur to the evangelical.  It merely underlines that the claims of the bibble babble are rubbish, and need bolstering.

“John (one of Jesus’ first twelve disciples)

Acts 4:13  Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

The John gospel was written about 90 CE at the earliest, and not by one of the disciples.  Well, illiterates don't write books, do they?  (Some authorities claim that John was killed along with James  - Acts 12:2 as predicted in Mark 10:39 and Martthew 20:23 - it's even harder for corpses to write than illiterates, and illiterate corpses haven't got a chance.)

As an eyewitness account of the happenings, it is rubbish.  Whoever wrote it  wasn't there and made it up.  Like most of the holey books it is an obvious fiction. Further, it's written from an anti-Jewish perspective.  Strange for a story set in Judea written by an alleged  Jew about a purported King of the Jews...

John 7:1  After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

More the sort of thing a gentile would write, could be straight out of “Mein Kampf” or Martin Luther, eh?

Point 3

“Faith in God can be found outside The Bible.  Perhaps in the magnificence of this universe (which was made by His words),

According to his/her/its/their words in the load of old tosh, it was a tiny universe with the sun, moon and stars being lights set in the firmament, which separates the earth from his/her/its/their abode.  The real universe is somewhat larger, still limited, but unbounded.  He/she/it/them seems a bit of a bodger (in the modern sense) and made a shoddy (modern usage again) world.

The one he/she/it/them created seems to be missing and has been replaced with a round world and a rather larger reality: 13.7 billion light years in all directions instead of a few thousand miles.  This change is so obvious that even the vatiCON has finally noticed, and has recently reluctantly admitted it.  (And they are best known for denying anything and everything in the face of the evidence or blaming the secular for their own strange activities.  Or homosexuals.  Or anybody.  Or everyone else.)  So the magnificent universe isn't the one your dog made.

Indeed, he/she/it/them seems to be an incompetent creator .  Not only did his/her/its/their lesser creations (the world, living creatures including humans) turn out a short lived failures.  His greater ones, (lucifer/satan and some of the angels) rebelled directly.  And what happened to the cherubim and the flaming sword he set to guard the gates of the garden of eden?  Why don't the religious run pilgrimages to the Euphrates to see these wonders?  Is that story yet another crock of something perchance?

“or perhaps by hearing the voice of God directly speaking to you (obviously still His words).

This  uses a common defence in murder trials.  “God told me to do it!”.

I can talk to myself as well.  Someone (I forget who and the exact quote) wrote that it is strange that god hates the same things that the religious fools who talk to him/her/it/them do.  As evidence, subjective experience is useless.  I've had some crazy experiences whilst pumped full of dia-morphine following major surgery.  They were not as weird as those in revelations though, and I wonder just what John of Patmos had been smoking?

By the way, and a matter of interest, is the christian god still telling his/her/its/their dupes to sacrifice their close relations as with Abraham?  Or does he get satan to do it as per Job?

“The Bible is, as I said, the best collection we have of God’s speaking to man.  Also note that much of it is not directly through the face meaning of the texts, but through symbolism, and parity, and other ways that God’s Holy Spirit reveals as you read and seek for revelation.

Well, here is a quick couple of simple quotes, that it is difficult to misunderstand:

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Pretty hard to see the symbolism here, it's quite a straightforward order.  Do not tell me that I don't understand this.  Here is the top man in the religion interpreting this clause: Poop Guilty VIII :-  Summis desiderantes (a load of bull something) Dec 1484 : Condemns an alleged outbreak of witchcraft and heresy in the region of the Rhine River valley, and deputizes Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger as inquisitors to root out alleged witchcraft in Germany.  They wrote Malleus Maleficarum (“The Hammer of Witches”, or “Hexenhammer”)

Expecting the usual apologetic, that the catholics were not "real christians" here is a quote from a real protestant, one Martin Luther.- "One should show no mercy to these [women]; I would burn them myself, for we read in the Law that the priests were the ones to begin the stoning of criminals."

The christian religious put killing “witches” into practice after much theological study of this line.  Folk who don't blindly follow holey books put an end to it; being rather more civilised than the fundaments (And no, I haven't  misspelled this, it’s where the stuff that filled the crock comes from).  It is now a crime to kill old ladies who keep black cats, whether or not they have a wart on the end of their nose or wear a pointed black hat.  And conjuring tricks with retractable needles will not stand up in court these days.

Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

I do not intend to seek happiness following this biblical injunction.  And again, please don't tell me that I have misread this.  There are plenty of examples of the killing of children in the holey bibble babble, and loads of examples of christians killing them afterwards.  Try Jerusalem, Constantinople, Beziers, Belsen and Jasenovac as a few samples of god botherers putting this into action.

They sometimes substitute starvation, swords and fire for stones, or he/she/it/they sent bears to rip 'em to shreds or just kills the first born.  The children were just as dead however it was done.

Plenty more imbecilities where these came from.  Pi = 3, (1 Kings 7:23) for instance.  And these are the revealed words of god?  Well, he/she/it/they must be stark barking mad if he/she/it/they expects rational people to worship him on the basis of these incoherent ravings.

Many highly intelligent people have come to the knowledge of God (or come to have faith in Him) after diligently challenging the idea.  Many of whom did not believe before. Many have written books explaining the story of how they were convinced (or found faith).” (Talk Back 95)

Many, many more have gone the other way.  Usually we get statements such as “I was angry with god for not existing” from so called and self claimed “atheists”.  That ain't the creed of an atheist, it is the creed of a religious apologist.  And we know the religious apologists lie at the drop of a hat.

Of course the evangelical apologists claim that the things in the holey books don't mean what is written down, they mean whatever the evangelical wants them to mean.  How convenient!  In that case their cod is an idiot, incapable of communicating simple ideas.  Hence not worth a light.

And if they are true, he/she/it/they must get his/her/its/their rocks off torturing people sane enough to reject him/her/it/them.  But that book is a crock of something, invented by a venal priesthoods as a way of feathering their nests, and subjecting better people to slavery and abuse.

“As you read to this, you may decide that you don’t agree with the basic premises from which I write this, but if you’ll keep reading, I think you’ll see that they will be self advocating in the end, as that is kind of the point of this letter.”

To illustrate this there a few quotes at the end, including:

Deut 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

These are usual religious cop out.  If you start off believing, you will finish up believing.  Bugger the evidence, indoctrinate yourself.  In this case, in an arbitrary and vicious dog.  For no reason we get:

Gen 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.

We are supposed to worship this murderous bastard?

All the gods I've come across have been obvious human fictions, and not very nice fictions at that.

“ What I was saying is that you can find faith through God's word even without faith in it.

YOU might be able to tell yourself that the bibble babble is not a pile of rubbish.  The more I have looked at it the more insane it appears.  The load of new tosh is no more impressive than the load of old tosh.  It's all a crock of something.

“Of course He knew what we would choose.  He would have liked for us to appreciate Him and all the beautiful Creation that He made for us and gave us dominion over.”

Then why did he bother?  The only reason to run an experiment is that you don't know the outcome for certain.  With omniscience there is no need to actually carry out the test.

Further, our claimed “dominion” over a part of the dry bits of this world is tenuous at best, earthquakes and tsunami seem to wipe some of us, his beloved humans, out in various disasters.  Such kills off the devout, the innocent as well as the nasty unbelievers and infidels.  Oh, I forgot, it's all down to immodest dressing by women, the usual scapegoats for cod's activities.

We certainly don't even have dominion as far as the Moon, and that is nearest bit of real estate.  Perhaps you would explain why the other 13.7 billion light years of space that we don't control are there? 

You claim to know his/her/it/their motives?  Bully for you.  Forgive me for not believing what you've written, it looks just like the usual religious claptrap, that avoids the questions with collections of long winded and circular waffle.

Note:  I don't blame an imaginary entity for anything.  I blame the parasitic priests who batten on to the impressionable in order to avoid having to do any work.

And the books are a collection of legends about people and beings who never existed related by folk who were not there.  Then rewritten, revised, reviewed and redacted by greedy priests who wanted to feather their own nests in this world, in return for promises of good things in the future, usually post mortem.

For example:

“The Bible is, as I said, the best collection we have of God’s speaking to man.  Also note that much of it is not directly through the face meaning of the texts, but through symbolism, and parity”

Typical – god is so incompetent at explaining himself in his inspired works, that you have to ignore what he said, and substitute whatever floats your boat.  The bibble babble is written in Newspeak. [1]

Actually, all the wholly babble is is a work of fiction, as are it's competitors.  As a thinking man's source of faith in a solitary and omnipotent cod, it is a complete failure.  On the positive side, it and the others will serve as doorstops, though.  Other uses require a certain amount of desperation...


  1. q.v. “1984” a work of fiction by George Orwell (E.A. Blair)