UCTAA churchlight

Site Search via Google

Discussion 1 on Talk Back 8
The foundations ofthe argument are flawed.

by Devon Bate

To add to this discussion (or any other,) please use the Contact form. This discussion has been continued.

I second everything Liam Walsh has kindly pointed out for us in Reflection 2 responding to this Talk Back. In addition, I'd like to make a few refutations showing why I believe the foundations of James Krieg's argument are fairly flawed.

It is important to know that this article is in no way a debate about the existence of God. This is what you are basing your argument on. "If I concede ignorance regarding God's existence and nature, I must also concede ignorance regarding morality." The existence of God has absolutely nothing to do with it. Clearly, those without God have a sense of morality. That's indisputable. The correct statement would be, "If I concede the disbelief in God's existence and nature, I can continue my healthy life as I did 10 seconds ago." like myself.

And as for James Krieg's comment, "If ethics and morality are ambiguous, then the agnostic must really fall into a fourth category - the guy who does whatever he feels like might be good at the time - be it determined by emotion, upbringing, societal pressure, or the steak he ate last night," I find this ignorant, to be honest. You are making implications that agnostics/disbelievers/heretics do what is good for them at that very moment, in the short term. This is something you made up on the spot. I should hope you don't actually think this. The millions of disbelievers in this world are hardly different in their good actions than Christians. Disbelievers do good because they know it is logically beneficial overall. You even mentioned that 'societal pressure' is a factor that an agnostic would base his or her decisions on. Is that not what drives Christianity in itself? In a Catholic community you would be sure not to curse using the Lord's name in vain not just because it is wrong, but because you would be more greatly punished there than in a mixed community.

And as for your suggestion of a 'fifth guy', well that would be ideal. But again, the millions of disbelievers in this world can be just as (sometimes more, sometimes less) moral as a believer. Whether God exists or not is besides the point. It's what drives the person to do good: personal benefits regarding religious belief, or simply to want to do good.

Thanks for not trying to convert us, too. I agree, if I am to be converted, it is only by God Himself.