UCTAA churchlight

Site Search via Google

Discussion 11 to Meditation 13
Re: Proofs of God's Existence (6)

by Thomas

To add to this discussion (or any other,) please use the Contact form. This discussion has been continued.

Addendum to a Laundry list (6 of 7)

"Just so that you don't feel that there are no proofs, despite the fact that you continue to ignore the proofs I have sent previously, there are others:"

Ad tedium ad infinitum - assumptions are thus.

Zilch-proof number 6, which is very similar to Zilch-proof  number 4.  I know I should not even respond to this non-thinking; but someone is telling this guy these arguments make sense? . . .

6. The existence of morals. If the universe and man were merely random chance arrangements, then no morality would exist. It would not be any more morally wrong to kill you than it would be to smash a mosquito. The existence of absolute morals implies One who made those rules. If there is no God, there is no logical basis for absolute morals. For many, the desire for freedom from absolute morals is the very reason they have denied the existence of God.

A definition from Webster’s Dictionary

Moral: (Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin moralis, from mor-, mos custom).

1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL <moral judgments>.
 b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem>.
  c : conforming to a standard of right behavior.
  d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation>.
  e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>.

It is easy to see just from the dictionary definition; that morality is implied as being a custom of a peoples.  The conforming to an accepted standard (of conduct) in regards to perceptions of what is right and wrong. There is no universally accepted code of morality; with regards to personal conduct. When in Rome do as (be as) a Roman. When at a cannibalistic Papua New Guinea dinner party just hope you’re not on the menu! 

 Morality does not exist as a universal from one society to the next. Morality does not exist as a universal from religious sect to religious sect. A Muslim who believes that a Christian (or a Jew) is morally impure and evil, is convinced through scripture, and peer pressure that he is wholly right in his religious belief. Righteous; moral in rightness and certitude - he can kill; execute (Jihad away); without remorse. He is behaving morally; his conduct is in conformance with both his religious beliefs and normal social (Muslim theocratic) conceptions of what is right and wrong. (This is not an example of universal morality.)

And in equal demonic Jihad delight - Christians have killed Christians while possessing righteousness and moral certitude - in mass witch hunts, inquisitions, and sectarian persecutions. The Cathars (the Albigenese Crusades) being a noted highlight of Christian darkness; and persecution to fellow Christian. An example when it’s OK for evil to serve the greater Christian good. (This is not an example of universal morality either.)

While murder, persecutions (ending in death), and mass killings (as in war) are probably considered universally wrong (at least one can hope so!) if they are defined properly; and if we live free from religious persecution; but other social conduct/behavior assigned to morality; is not absolute nor universal. . . . Sexual modes, personal conduct, ethics, values, the value of moral-conduct, etc, these vary to such a great degree they can hardly be considered as containing any aspect associated with: absolute or universal; rights or wrongs. If we consider conduct outside the realms of violent acts; there is a lot of social conduct that hardly seems relevant at all.

But while someone is concerned with the irrelevances of sexual morays; distracted by their own moral certitude; real world events indicate a lack of morality and a lack of real individual moral-concern.

This table provides a partial list of persecutions, wars and political atrocities (and a few major disasters for comparison. Note: the disaster numbers while large - pale in comparison - to men killing men): (See table)

With all this absolute and universal morality existing in the world - we should focus on the important issues - we should all be concerned (morally speaking) when a man is having sex with another man. You have to have absolute moral priorities - you never know they (shh… whisper “the Gays”) might reproduce!

The existence of morals: if the numbers were used as proof(!); the conclusion would be no God, and no morals; apparently the mosquito squashing scenario is the rule and not the exception.

If the universe (order from chaos) and man (definitely evolved) are random chance arrangements then no morality exists. This is actually true - let’s face it. Morality doesn’t exist out-there; in the recesses of a black-hole or at the bottom of the sea; or in a mind that fails to reason it into existence. It’s not some mystical universally guiding force - it’s a reason. It takes reasoning to establish morality. It should be clear to anyone that man is a social being (and that his conduct; emotional-base; derives from the same origins as any other social animal). Our difference is reason combined with our natural social behavior.

Let’s consider this “It would not be any more morally wrong to kill you than it would be to smash a mosquito.” While you might kill me, if there is no God, or in the absence of a belief in one, I would not kill you. The reason - it is simply the wrong thing to do. No eternal punishment, nor any eternal reward, is required for me to behave morally in this regard. I do not assume that there are no rules in the absence of a mythical god concept. There are always consequences to actions taken.

If there is no God, there is no logical basis for absolute morals= true; the ABSOLUTE is a false notion. And so what, believing in a mythical god concept will not stop genocide, a religious persecution or a future nuclear holocaust. Only reason can prevent this; not belief; one must see the destruction men cause to others - with open eyes. There are no witches, warlocks, wizard, devils or (real) enemies (antagonists - yes) in this world.  . . .  We do not live in a demon-haunted world - and it is pure madness to speak of the devil when referring to anyone; the neighbor, a good looking woman, or someone called “the enemy,” etc. There are only men and women in this world and we (men) must learn to be better men.

Wrong in violence - is wrong - and against the right; against the knowledge of consequence of actions taken. Do right, and don’t inflict harm, for this simple reason, just because it’s the right thing to do - and not for the sake of some mythical god concept; the old rules are all gone. Can you behave rightly? Yes...

For many, the desire for freedom from absolute morals is the very reason they have denied the existence of God.” (?) This makes no sense, especially if you don’t believe in myths. We are talking about Zeus aren’t we, or Yahweh, or El, or Ra, does it really matter - no. There is no reason to affirm a myth, denial of a myth is a meaningless activity, and many have never actually considered that they had to - deny any myth.

Regardless of existence - god as a philosophical abstract does not ever equate to a provincial parochial myth of god. I don’t see any possibility that the mythical Yahweh-Yeshua-Ghost construct is a universal absolute lawgiver of morality; your own comments and the numbers above indicate otherwise - and a mythical-legendary-tradition does not equate (ever) to a supreme-being construct in the abstract.

I have put the mythical; the legendary; the evidence of absolute and universal Judeo-Christian morality last. If you wish you can skip over this part, because it is unnecessary for you to deny that which you do not affirm.

From the Bible (a very short list of the bad - from a list that is very-very long):

Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name."

Isaiah 45:6-7 " … I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Jeremiah 48:10 " … and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood."

Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

Luke 22:36 " … he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Luke 12:49-53 (Jesus says) "I am come to send fire on the earth; … Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

Matthew 15:24 " … I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Exodus 12:29-30 "And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon. … for there was not a house where there was not one dead."

Exodus 17:13 "And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

Exodus 20:5 & Deuteronomy 5:9 " … I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Isaiah 14:21 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; … "

Joel 3:10 "Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning-hooks into spears:"

Joshua 6:21-24 "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. … And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the Lord."

2 Kings 2:23-24 " … there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

Numbers 31:17-23 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for your-selves. … the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses; only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire … "

1 Samuel 6:19 " … even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."

1 Samuel 15:3-9 " … utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. … But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly."

2 Samuel 24:15 "So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men." - 70,000

Exodus 32:27-28 " … Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men."

Joshua 10:20 "And it came to pass, when Joshua and the children of Israel had made an end of slaying them with a very great slaughter, till they were consumed, … "

Numbers 25:8-9 "And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel , and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel . And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand." - 24,000

Judges 1:4 " … and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men." - 10,000

Judges 3:29 "And they slew of Moab at that time about ten thousand men, all lusty, and all men of valour; and there escaped not a man."

1 Samuel 18:7 " … Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands."

Joshua 8: " … that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai."

2 Kings 19:35 "And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses."

Numbers 16:49 "Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred. . ." - 14,700

2 Samuel 8:13 "And David gat him a name when he returned from smiting of the Syrians in the valley of salt, being eighteen thousand men." - 18,000

2 Samuel 8:5 " … David slew of the Syrians two and twenty thousand men." - 22,000

Judges 20:42-48 " … and them which came out of the cities they destroyed in the midst of them. … And there fell of Benjamin eighteen thousand men; … and they gleaned of them in the highways five thousand men; … and slew two thousand men of them. So that all which fell that day of Benjamin were twenty and five thousand men that drew the sword; … And the men of Israel turned again upon the children of Benjamin, and smote them with the edge of the sword, as well the men of every city, as the beast, and all that came to hand: also they set on fire all the cities that they came to." - 25,000 total

Judges 20:35 " … and the children of Israel destroyed of the Benjamites that day twenty and five thousand and an hundred men: all these drew the sword."

2 Samuel 10:18 " … and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there."  - 40,701

1 Samuel 6:19 " … even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: … " - 50,070

Esther 9:15-16 " … slew three hundred men at Shushan; … and slew of their foes seventy and five thousand, but they laid not their hands on the prey," - 75,000

1 Kings 20:29 " … and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians an hundred thousand footmen in one day." 100,000

Judges 8:10 " … for there fell an hundred and twenty thousand men that drew sword." - 120,000

2 Chronicles 20:29-30 " … slew in Judah an hundred and twenty thousand in one day, … and there a wall fell upon twenty and seven thousand of the men that were left." - 147,000

2 Chronicles 13:17 "And Abijah and his people slew them with a great slaughter: so there fell down slain of Israel five hundred thousand chosen men." - 500,000 (The god smiting  numbers are getting quite big aren’t they!)

Ezekiel 9:5-7 " … Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: … fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city."

Ezekiel 26:15-21 "Thus saith the Lord God to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee? … When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee; When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; … yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God." (Oops - Tyre is still exists as an inhabited city). 

Hosea 13:16 " Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

Isaiah 13:15-18 "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. … Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children."

Psalms 137:8-9 "O daughter of Babylon , who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Proverbs 13:24 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." 

(It’s not hard to think that this is all about human sacrifice.)

Exodus 22:29 "Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."

Deuteronomy 28:53-57 "And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, … and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, … "  

Ezekiel 5:10 "Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; … "

Ezekiel 20:26 "And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

Genesis 22:1-12 "… God did tempt Abraham, and …he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and … offer him there for a burnt offering … and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. … And the angel of the lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, … Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

Jeremiah 19:9 "And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, … "

Judges 11:30-38 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. … and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child … she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, … And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed … "

2 Kings 6:28-29 "And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: … "

Leviticus 26:29 "And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat."

2 Samuel 21:3-9 "What shall I do for you? and wherewith shall I make the atonement, that ye may bless the inheritance of the Lord? … Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the Lord … and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest."  

This of course is my personal favorite display of absolute morality- pick up sticks = you die.

Numbers 15:32-36 " … they found a man that gathered sticks (on Saturday) upon the sabbath day. … And the lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: … And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses." 

Misology; non-reasons for the Christian hatred of thinking.

Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

1 Corinthians 1:19-21 "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

1 Corinthians 3:18-19 "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, he taketh the wise in their own craftiness."

1 Corinthians 14:38 "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."  (Unbelievable - literally).

2 Corinthians 4:16 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."

Ecclesiastes 7:4 "The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth."

1 Enoch 69:9-11 "And he [the fallen angel-Penemue] instructed mankind in writing with ink and paper, and thereby many sinned from eternity to eternity and until this day. For men were not created for such a purpose, to give confirmation to their good faith with pen and ink." (Ignorance is bliss!)

Matthew 11:25 "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O father, lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

Mark 4:11 " … Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God : but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; … " (This is a joke! The god-confound unfunny kind.)

Romans 3:7-8 " … if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just."

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."