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Discussion 9 to Meditation 13
Re: Proofs of God's Existence (4)

by Thomas

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Addendum to a Laundry list (4 of 7)

"Just so that you don't feel that there are no proofs, despite the fact that you continue to ignore the proofs I have sent previously, there are others:"

Ad tedium ad infinitum, assumptions are thus!

4.  The existence of man's conscience and moral nature. This implies a moral God who planted a moral nature within us. If things just happened by chance, there would be no morals. The universal presence of guilt evidences the universal moral conscience placed in us by a moral Being.

These statements are not reasons but rationalizations; they are personal validations of your myth. The statements are a reflection of self. It is you trying to convince yourself that the errant book [and its myth therein] is a good book - and that the jealous immoral fire-God Yahweh is a moral mythical being. That the Yahweh:Yeshua:Gave-up-the-Ghost Trinity means something. But the Church imposes; has imposed its will upon you - and doubt equals loss of faith; and if you don’t accept it you are not a “believer.” And the Church does not listen; does not debate; does not reason; does not tolerate questions. You exist in a psychological state I once lived; yet lived through; and out of.

These statements; they speak not in depth; nor do they speak to one who has reason; they are simple reflections of ancient dogmas - and anyway, they are the same as before; assumptions to prop “one book” up - against all books. This dogmatic theology; which in my opinion; could hardly be considered philosophy - since the first assumption is always: God(s) exists.

“God exists” as a statement yields no understanding of what a God, God(s) or super-nature is. It is without any detail; aspect; definition; it is an undefined quality of being. In essence there can be no definition of that which is currently transcending your mind. It is a label without a meaning. Its’ meaning is meaningless. God could merely equate to “Dunno.” Only you believing that you know all - could yield any knowledge of a super-being that exists outside; beyond; reality; and encompasses all. Even if the Bible contained an aspect of truth about transcendence of being; the book is finite; the mythical Yahweh:Yeshua:Ghost construct is assumed to be infinite.

This ancient philosophy; this conjecture of God-morality; and its assumed existence is a dogma-doctrine that dates back to 300-400 B.C.E. and to the likes of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. This “God exists - theological assumption” was then adopted by Augustine (of Hippo), who with Manichean influences helped turn Saul-the-Paul’s Yeshua construct into the basic form you accept - without question.

These constructs of theological morality exist outside of this book of myth - you call good and moral.

Saul-the-Paul’s contributions:

1.) Pauline doctrine replaces the teachings of Yeshua:Jesus - doctrine has authority over the word; based upon a hallucination he claimed to have had.

2 Corinthians 5:16: If we did know Jesus according to the flesh, that is not how we know about him any longer. (Forget about the assumed Jesus; my hallucination is more important!)

Galatians 1:11: The good news I preach is not a human message that I was given by men, it is something I learnt only through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (The nut assumes God-authority himself!)

2.) Atonement - Yeshua:Jesus died for your sins. Is this idea attributed to the mythical Yeshua:Jesus words? Nope! This is Saul-the-Paul’s doctrine. Yeshua:Jesus’ death is alluded to in Mark, but not expressly as atonement; this is Paul-doctrine - not Jesus-word.

Romans 5:12: as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all man, because all sinned . . .

Romans 5:6-8: You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for our sins.

Galatians 2:16: (Galatians 3:11:) A man is not justified by the works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Odd this God-moral-law is - man is not justified by being moral or having morals; but by having Pauline indoctrinated faith.

Romans 3:28: A man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the Law.

It’s all Saul-the-Paul doctrine; made up by Paul; by the will of “the Paul.”

 3.) Deification of Yeshua: The beginning of the wholly absurd trinity.

Romans 1:1-4: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ...who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Philippians 2:6-7: His state was divine, yet he did not cling to his equality with God but emptied himself to assume the condition of a slave, and became as men are.

Augustine’s contributions:

Augustine could hardly keep it in his pants before or after conversion to Christianity. Quote “Give me chastity - just not yet.” And this is a canonized Saint, ready to right to world on sin.

1.) The concept of original sin - a theological construct: this “Fail from grace.”

2.) Baptism to wash away conception’s sin - for sex is evil; thus “conceived in sin.”

3.) Predetermination - some people are destined for damnation upon conception.

4.) The disavowal of freewill - God’s will determines what is good and what is not.

No matter what effort you make to be good; this is irrelevant; your conscience is not relevant to God.  Only God knows why.

5.) This world is a “test”- for future reward and punishment.

6.) The body (material) is at war with the spirit (ethereal) - this a Manichean influence; this dualism; a construct of one (material) god in an apocalyptic war with a (spirit) god.

7.)  And the notion of a personal God - which does not exist within the Gospels; nor the O.T.   

Thomas Aquinas contributions:

1.) Translates Aristotle into the Christian Worldview.

2.) Defines the theological virtues of: Faith, Love, and Hope.

3.) Defines “Divine Law.”

All this doctrine and it’s not even from the mouth of the mythical Yahweh; or (un-fleshy) Yeshua. So then what about this LORD of peace and light and morality - this lawgiver God myth - does this idea hold water?

How about a look at the real 10 commandments the ones written after Moses ker-plunked the Hebs for partying during his most-priestly pious absence - written with the finger of the mythical fire-god of darkness Yahweh the jealous:

Yeshua:Jesus the Jew says Jew-Laws: YES!  Paul says Jew-Laws: NO!

1.) Thou shalt worship no other God.

     (If there is only one what’s this law even for?)

2.) Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

     (I can make a God by melting gold? I didn’t know that! Thanks.)

3.) The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.

     (Eat bread without Yeast . . . and?)

4.) Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.

    (But I only work 5? Am I breaking the law?)

5.) Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks.

     (I’m not Jewish enough for this one - means I’m a lawbreaker.)

6.) Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the Lord God.

7.) Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.

     (Ok - just blood - no bread.)

8.) Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left until the morning.

     (Better eat up all that animal!)

9.) The first of the firstfruits of thy land shalt thou bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.

     (More priest offerings.)

10.) Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

     (No boiling a young-goat in goat milk - funny this never really crossed my mind.)

The bible is more ancient parochial tradition; than anything else; but what about the LORD . . .

Beware the dark-lord cometh - and no I am not talking about Darth-Vader!

1 Kings 8:12: Then spake Solomon, the Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

2 Samuel 22:12: And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.

Psalm 18:11: He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

Psalm 97:1-2: The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him.

God-morality from the other 4 Books of the Pentateuch:

What is the penalty for working on the Sabbath? You will be stoned to death.

See: Exodus 35:2, Numbers15:32-36.

How should parents treat a stubborn and rebellious son? Stone him to death.

See: Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9.

What is the penalty for not being a virgin on your wedding night? Ye shall be stoned to death.

See: Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

What happens if a man rapes an engaged virgin in the city, and no one hears? Both will be stoned to death.

See: Deuteronomy 22:23-24.

What do you do about witches? Kill them!
I didn’t even know they existed; myths and superstitions die oh so hard!

Exodus 22:18: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Leviticus 20:27: A man or a woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Who created the evil-side of morality? I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7) Note: the NIV translates this “evil” word out for they do not trust the word; do you?) 

On the morality of peace - by the Prince of Peace:

Matthew 10:34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke 12:49-51: I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.

Luke 12:47-48: And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. (Jesus says slave beatings are A.O.K!)

This is getting out of hand, I have to wonder - have you actually read the bible? Or does doctrine outside the Bible guide you? Have you hallucinated into being a God to guide you? Either way there is nothing moral; or superior in the myths, the doctrines and “the word” you ascribe to your God concept. For it speaks otherwise; it speaks loudly about a lack of morality; a lack of value; a lack of spirituality within the understanding of a myth.

The existence of man's conscience and moral nature: is predicated upon a naturally evolved social order (by chance: man is a social animal). Wolves are social animals; herd animals are social; birds are social; bees are social; even fish; and of course man too - it is obviously true and evidence of nature; not of mythology.

A moral nature is often a natural thing for some. For woman I think socialization comes naturally - for most women anyway. Brutality though is a male dominated sport - and the only true measure of morality. For some men this existence of testosterone requires that one; who’s nature makes him less [morally] adept; adhere to a more rigid discipline of socialization; even if by rigid I mean a childhood filled with thoughtful care and deep nurturing love, and education. A greater effort must be exercised to control this occasional male-outburst of aggression; through learned patterns of acceptable social behavior; philosophy; constructive outlets for aggression; etc. 

This male-nature is the cause of all great suffering in the world, now and ever. Any immorality you ever speak of can be attributed to this creation; thus is a creator error - if you “believe” in myth and hearsay. The lack of morality that exists in the world is due to male-nature; not a God concept; and is the reason for all bad reasons.

A good morality begins in a microcosm - it begins in a home. It is manifest within nature; not some super-nature. It is based upon inborn emotional needs; the psychology of dominance and submission; knowledge and education; good child rearing techniques; love; understanding; natural fear; courage to suppress fear; philosophies developed-evolved over time; prosperity (Yes! Not just surviving will allow a mind to grow; ponder; and work to ease others suffering in this world.); art; sometimes mythology even; abandoning mythology; many things contribute to the conscience; the morality of men and women.

A Bible-God-morality manifest within is a NOT. And one should hope so!

If we assumed your mythical Gods nature the implication would be that man cannot be moral. If you assume the tenets of your doctrine are true: a man/woman cannot EVER know if their deeds be good; or bad. One cannot possess a conscience either; for if one did; then he/she would be judge of what is good; and according to this God-type doctrine I am not supposed to know what is good. Therefore I cannot assume the mythological role of knowing good - as God only knows and only “God knows why.” This philosophy is wholly (not Holy) without merit and entirely absurd - because you do know better; you can learn; men-women do change; society does/can evolve; we can be good; this is evidence that your myth of God, your doctrine, your “one book” against all books; is in error; and that man's conscience and moral nature implies the opposite - no myth of God; no myth of divine lawgiver; not in the past nor today.

Men/women do have conscience; we do have guilt, but not unnecessary guilt; nor universal guilt. We do have morality but it is based upon the ancient concept of spirit and esprit - and not a myth. This is not a myth of spirit but a value called spirit that one places above ones own needs; and strives for - after ones own needs have been meet. Nowhere in life is there a duty that requires a man or woman to suffer as a means to end suffering.

 The myth of a God is an order of magnitude so separated from man as a whole; a cult of personality placed upon a super-nature assumed infinite is a preposterous notion. Myth of God as concept has never been evidence or support of the provincial parochial traditions of a people. Morality-society is evidentiary to a manifest nature; not a super-nature.